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wowczarek 1 days ago [-]
Well I'll be.
At least two of the authors are also avid chiropterologists, with an understood penchant for bunkers and other such spaces.
One summer in my late teens I sat with two of them in an urban park in NW Poland drinking beer, watching bats getting caught in a net half-submerged in water near a bridge and engaging in impromptu comedy with passers-by asking questions like "good catch? any fish?". Good times.
Engaging in field research is a wonderfully rewarding experience, a great way to spend time, meet people and do something meaningful at the same time. If you've never done it - do it. There are plenty of volunteering opportunities - you don't need to be a scientist. Birding, insects, marine life, whatever. Citizen science is also great, but if you get a chance to work alongside scientists, it gets even better. 10/10 good walk, unspoilt.
quibono 1 days ago [-]
I love this!
> A ‘colony’ of Formica polyctena was found in January 2013, during winter counts of hibernating bats in the underground bunker.
And all makes sense
numeri 1 days ago [-]
How did you get involved with field-working scientists, what initiated the social connection or desire to do so?
wowczarek 16 hours ago [-]
It's how I grew up. Both of my parents are naturalists and our home often served as a base camp for assorted weirdos counting, collecting or surveying things and I would have probably done the same if it wasn't for what this guy Torvalds unleashed in the 90s.
AlecSchueler 1 days ago [-]
Where might one get started with citizen science as an outsider?
lukan 22 hours ago [-]
Nature clubs, in germany the BUND for instance. They organize guided tours and introductions, are full of enthusiasts and are happy for any newcomer to tell them all about the various ways to participate.
(This is also where ecology academics do networking)
alexey-salmin 1 days ago [-]
> The ‘colony’ has evidently produced no offspring, which is due to low (though relatively stable) temperatures and scanty food in the bunker.
Isn't it due to the lack of the queen? Colony of worker ants is a dead end
donkey_brains 1 days ago [-]
They mentioned that a queen or brood ant might fall into the bunker occasionally but the low temperatures would prevent breeding in that case.
esaym 1 days ago [-]
I think some acrobat ant colonies have more than one queen.
ilamont 1 days ago [-]
The amount of potential food in the bunker, suitable for wood ants, is not known, but the smaller arthropods living there could hardly be enough to allow the workers both temperature regulation of the mound and feeding of offspring.
Is cannibalism a possibility?
unrented7977 1 days ago [-]
Certainly, but not in any meaningfully sustainable sense. Entropy rules all. Only a fraction of energy and nutrients are recoverable from food. And once an organism spends energy, it's gone forever.
Without a continuous external supply of food, the colony will starve in short order.
block_dagger 1 days ago [-]
But there's a continuous external supply of new ants, hence a food supply, if I understand parent comment correctly.
shrx 21 hours ago [-]
I suppose over time the mass of dead ants will start to decompose into a fertile medium providing energy for other species, which in turn might be foraged by the ants?
gwbas1c 1 days ago [-]
This article keeps coming to the front page every few years; and every few years I keep opening it to look at the pictures.
It's just that fascinating!
heikkilevanto 1 days ago [-]
I wish the scientists had left a plank or a string leading to the ventilation hole, so the ants could get out, at least to forage for more food. But then again, it would have spoiled this "natural" experiment.
Nicholas_C 1 days ago [-]
Perhaps entomologists have a Prime Directive.
beng-nl 12 hours ago [-]
Yes. The prime directive is not to obstruct the system that is a source of research papers ;-)
shmeeed 1 days ago [-]
I still wonder why they don't just leave? I mean, aren't ants capable of walking on the ceiling and up the pipe? What keeps them?
unrented7977 1 days ago [-]
They can't climb all surfaces. They especially can't climb on dirty and dusty surfaces or crumbling paint.
But more than that, they fell into the hole without leaving a pheromone trail to follow back to the nest. Without that, they have no way of navigating. Only random exploration could get them back out, and that would only help one ant at a time.
A unique accumulation of workers (‘colony’) of the wood ant Formica polyctena Först., trapped within an old bunker for storing nuclear weapons, is described. The source of the ‘colony’ is a large colony nesting outdoors, on top of the bunker. Individuals that have fallen down through a ventilation pipe are not able to find their way back to the mother nest.
The dictatorship of proletariat but for ants, and inside a Soviet bunker of course. Sometimes I see why people find the idea that there's no God incredulous.
quibono 1 days ago [-]
> Two underground two-level ammunition bunkers, 300 metres apart (26 m × 42 m each), which constituted the core of the base and where nuclear weapons were kept, have survived (Sadowski 2011, Rutko 2015).
Interestingly this is a "Soviet" bunker in western Poland. A Warsaw Pact bunker?
Also, I didn't think that Soviet policy was to store nuclear weapons in Poland - not sure if this quote is accurate or if this was just more common than I had thought?
m4rtink 1 days ago [-]
It was likely similar to the warhead storage bunkers in Czech Republic (or Czechoslovaki back then), most likely intended for tactical nuclear weapons, like Scuds or maybe for aircraft as well:
Of course the Soviets (who were exclusively running and guarding those bunkers back then) never confirmed what they were used to or if they contained live nuclear weapons. But it is clear that this was the intended use case, given the storage conditions, the expens to build & run those as well as how heavily they were guarded.
"This is a special storage facility, type Granit 2 (or 3), designed for A-bombs."
Not sure if it's true, but the article says these nukes were meant for Italy.
quibono 1 days ago [-]
I find these bunkers fascinating. I've always wanted to explore one.
Amazing how much money was wasted on these only to be staffed for years and then abandoned.
t-3 1 days ago [-]
Successful military spending always appears to be "wasted" if you think the point is to use weapons. War means that your defense strategy has failed, peace means that it has succeeded. Never having to use what was stored in those bunkers means that they served their purpose.
dripdry45 1 days ago [-]
By this logic people can justify almost anything. I can say that we should’ve sent dinosaur clones to the moon because otherwise something bad is going to happen. Then we send the dinosaurs to the moon and nothing bad happens, and it justifies the action.
It’s the same insanity gun owners use justifying bringing weapons everywhere they go.
I simply don’t buy the argument, though I do see your point about deterrence
bell-cot 1 days ago [-]
Might you have heard the old saw "Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands"?
Military spending is similar - you want security at the minimum cost.
Unfortunately, military conflicts (real and potential) have vastly more complexity and uncertainty than the gravity, wind, traffic loads, etc. that a bridge has to withstand. And even a nation's best experts (generally its senior military officers) generally have motives at odds with minimum-cost security for their nation.
wffurr 1 days ago [-]
Si vis pacem para bellum.
shilgapira 1 days ago [-]
No snark intended, but if you see his point then you do seem to buy his argument
genxy 1 days ago [-]
I have a rock that cures cancer.
varjag 1 days ago [-]
People think of Warsaw Pact as an alliance akin to NATO but opposite. In reality it was essentially Soviet Army padded with national units of subjugated countries. For instance there is NATO HQ as everyone knows but Warsaw Pact headquarters never existed: the chain of command started in Ministry of Defense in Moscow.
And yes tactical nukes were forward deployed to most Pact countries.
frrlpp 2 hours ago [-]
People think of NATO as an alliance akin to NATO but opposite. In reality it was essentially US Army padded with national units of subjugated countries. For instance there is NATO HQ as everyone knows but the chain of command started in Washington.
varjag 34 minutes ago [-]
Literally no country was forced into NATO. Quite the opposite, the eastward members were banging the door to get in and were admitted only because no-one in the West could fathom aggressive Russia again. Warsaw Pact in contrast bided its time invading its members who tried to get out.
sandworm101 1 days ago [-]
By "nuclear weapon" most people think of a bomb, but it can also mean the non-bomb portions of nuclear delivery systems such as rocket/missile bodies and aircraft. In times of rising conflict they could "forward-deploy" the warheads from Russia to be mated to rockets and such already in the field. So the peacetime "no nukes in Poland" policy can be true even though "nuclear weapons" were already waiting in bunkers there.
The west did basically the same thing. Not every "nuclear weapon bunker" at every American base actually held warheads.
m4rtink 1 days ago [-]
In the Czechoslovak case those bunkers were definitely for the warheads - far too small for a whole Scud missile, air conditioned, etc. The delivery mechanisms were notionally conventional & are documented as stationed elsewhere.
It was in those bunkers where the warheads would be (were ?) stored in the time of crisis as a forward deployment.
dghughes 1 days ago [-]
The ants are two weeks away from going nuclear.
tristramb 1 days ago [-]
Ant expert E.O.Wilson once said of communism: "Great idea. Wrong species"
Arodex 1 days ago [-]
Funny you say that when literally a few stories away on HN first page, you have this:
What does the "dictatorship of the proletariat" have to do with a bunch of ants falling through a hole in the ground? Is it because worker ants are called "worker" ants? Is a dictatorship when you fall down a hole and are left without a queen or any resources?
God could be imagined illustrating why we need queens and resources in a Soviet bunker because the Soviets believed there shouldn't be queens, or resources? Did the Soviets actually believe that there shouldn't be any natural resources? Are human "queens" our only source of reproduction?
This is really supposed to be an instructive metaphor for what happens when people who work are left to their own devices in a barren place, and that's supposed to make us reflect on the Soviet Union?
Don't worry, I know the answer: They're called "workers" and the situation is bad. The Soviets said that they were a society of "workers" and the Soviets were bad. Deep.
varjag 1 days ago [-]
I grew up in the Soviet Union so am entitled to whatever dab on communism can come up with.
kian 1 days ago [-]
name checks out
circlefavshape 1 days ago [-]
Maybe eventually the earthen mound they have constructed will reach the level of the hole they're falling through, and they'll be able to rejoin the main colony?
neuroticnews25 1 days ago [-]
Flat parts of the earthen mound and the floor of the adjacent spaces were carpeted with bodies of dead ants. Locally the deposits were a few centimetres thick. (...) the number of dead Formica polyctena workers probably amounted to about two million. The cemeteries comprised also remnants of other insects, most probably those caught by foragers of the free-living upper colony that had fallen down. Of other ants, only a head of the Leptothorax sp. worker was found.
"Ah yes, that small speck of chitin among 2 million other corpses is obviously a head of the Leptothorax sp. worker."
donkey_brains 1 days ago [-]
I also found this part hilarious. It’s not even a needle in a haystack, more like one specific needle in a…big pile of needles, I guess. Except the needles are microscopic, fragile and fragmentary.
ForHackernews 1 days ago [-]
Presumably entomologists are good at accurately identifying small bits of ants.
nickdothutton 1 days ago [-]
[narrator] This was not a story about ants.
donkey_brains 1 days ago [-]
It’s definitely a metaphor for something, but I don’t know what.
andyjohnson0 1 days ago [-]
Human looks around office. Single access-controlled door. Windows obscured by blinds. Suspended ceiling with lighting panels. Short sightlines due to desk partitions.
Shudders and turns back to the screens and the work. Can't leave yet.
xp84 21 hours ago [-]
I too was thinking of how we’ve also lost our way and seem to be completely in the dark and unable to even realize what’s wrong and how to solve the problems. We are just continuing to build the mound because that’s supposed to be our job.
At least two of the authors are also avid chiropterologists, with an understood penchant for bunkers and other such spaces.
One summer in my late teens I sat with two of them in an urban park in NW Poland drinking beer, watching bats getting caught in a net half-submerged in water near a bridge and engaging in impromptu comedy with passers-by asking questions like "good catch? any fish?". Good times.
Engaging in field research is a wonderfully rewarding experience, a great way to spend time, meet people and do something meaningful at the same time. If you've never done it - do it. There are plenty of volunteering opportunities - you don't need to be a scientist. Birding, insects, marine life, whatever. Citizen science is also great, but if you get a chance to work alongside scientists, it gets even better. 10/10 good walk, unspoilt.
> A ‘colony’ of Formica polyctena was found in January 2013, during winter counts of hibernating bats in the underground bunker.
And all makes sense
(This is also where ecology academics do networking)
Isn't it due to the lack of the queen? Colony of worker ants is a dead end
Is cannibalism a possibility?
Without a continuous external supply of food, the colony will starve in short order.
It's just that fascinating!
But more than that, they fell into the hole without leaving a pheromone trail to follow back to the nest. Without that, they have no way of navigating. Only random exploration could get them back out, and that would only help one ant at a time.
0 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50312658
The dictatorship of proletariat but for ants, and inside a Soviet bunker of course. Sometimes I see why people find the idea that there's no God incredulous.
Interestingly this is a "Soviet" bunker in western Poland. A Warsaw Pact bunker?
Also, I didn't think that Soviet policy was to store nuclear weapons in Poland - not sure if this quote is accurate or if this was just more common than I had thought?
https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/top-secret-cold-war...
https://www.rferl.org/a/24993733.html
https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/18/czech-cold-war-depot-for...
Of course the Soviets (who were exclusively running and guarding those bunkers back then) never confirmed what they were used to or if they contained live nuclear weapons. But it is clear that this was the intended use case, given the storage conditions, the expens to build & run those as well as how heavily they were guarded.
"This is a special storage facility, type Granit 2 (or 3), designed for A-bombs."
Not sure if it's true, but the article says these nukes were meant for Italy.
Amazing how much money was wasted on these only to be staffed for years and then abandoned.
It’s the same insanity gun owners use justifying bringing weapons everywhere they go.
I simply don’t buy the argument, though I do see your point about deterrence
Military spending is similar - you want security at the minimum cost.
Unfortunately, military conflicts (real and potential) have vastly more complexity and uncertainty than the gravity, wind, traffic loads, etc. that a bridge has to withstand. And even a nation's best experts (generally its senior military officers) generally have motives at odds with minimum-cost security for their nation.
And yes tactical nukes were forward deployed to most Pact countries.
The west did basically the same thing. Not every "nuclear weapon bunker" at every American base actually held warheads.
It was in those bunkers where the warheads would be (were ?) stored in the time of crisis as a forward deployment.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50388122
God could be imagined illustrating why we need queens and resources in a Soviet bunker because the Soviets believed there shouldn't be queens, or resources? Did the Soviets actually believe that there shouldn't be any natural resources? Are human "queens" our only source of reproduction?
This is really supposed to be an instructive metaphor for what happens when people who work are left to their own devices in a barren place, and that's supposed to make us reflect on the Soviet Union?
Don't worry, I know the answer: They're called "workers" and the situation is bad. The Soviets said that they were a society of "workers" and the Soviets were bad. Deep.
"Ah yes, that small speck of chitin among 2 million other corpses is obviously a head of the Leptothorax sp. worker."
Shudders and turns back to the screens and the work. Can't leave yet.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21481852