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CircuitSeuss 1 hours ago [-]
I know this isn't the answer you want, but I sell people on Signal based on the user features. I’ve had great success in getting my friends and family to adopt it.
Signal is incredible user friendly, privacy respecting, the gold standard for encryption, cross platform, etc. Yes, it’s centralized, yes it’s imperfect in many ways, but it’s easy and it’s pretty damn good.
If you want to help the people around you to become more involved in understanding and owning their tech, it has to be an easy and good experience. It has to be tangibly better, not just abstractly better with tangible downsides.
I use XMPP, but would never try to convince my friends and family to use it; it’s too complicated, the user facing apps all suck (Snikket and Cheogram are the best of the bad lot), and the incentives to use it aren't there. As you said, it’s just not attractive to a regular user, since it’s all around a worse experience than what they currently use. The one exception is that I do occasionally recommend XMPP for SIP access via jmp.chat to some of my more technical friends who have a tolerance for clunky user experiences in favor of privacy and affordability. I am holding onto an unreasonable hope that Signal or Whatsapp or others will consider XMPP+OMEO in the future to popularize the standard, but that is extremely unlikely.
Matrix also is an unfortunately terrible alternative to discord (even Element is a rather lacking user experience), so while I have pushed to move groups there before, I no longer recommend Matrix. I suggest signal or nextcloud as alternatives when possible; the remaining large groups who need the closed server forum style system are usually unlikely to move to Matrix anyway.
kreyenborgi 30 minutes ago [-]
I have gotten all my family and even inlaws onto Signal. (It helps that it lets Android users send higher quality pictures than SMS to iOS users, while not being social media like Whatsapp, ie. great for groups that include kids.)
But I can't even decide on a matrix/xmpp client for myself, much less for family or friends.
fasterik 54 minutes ago [-]
Yep, this is the insight that so many ideological purists are missing, in the privacy space and in free software more broadly. A 90% solution that "just works" is infinitely better than a 100% solution that nobody is going to use.
bob1029 1 hours ago [-]
I learned a long time ago that things like this might be really important to me but fall below the noise floor for everyone else.
Unless everyone in your circle is on HN all the time, you will probably fail to convince them to change.
The more likely outcome is that you wind up annoying everyone involved and don't get invited to the new discord server.
My advice is not specific to Matrix but other self hosted private services. Some of this may or may not be feasible with Matrix. (I have never used Matrix)
- Whether family or friends, always suggest it as a "fallback" for when "preferred service" is down and to use when discussion ultra-sensitive topics or sharing financial files. With time they may just stay connected to it if the friction to do so is low. It has to be their choice, not yours.
- What helps? Add more incentives such as perks that "preferred service" does not offer. No file size limits. No or few file type limits. No content filters. Add emoji's or gifs that align with their inside jokes and their style of humor. Keeping random people away is very important. Making your friends and family administrators or moderators and let them decide how it operates. Do not moderate or power-trip over your friends or family or they will leave. Limit rules to "Do not break the laws of this country in public chatrooms" and private chat rooms if you do not physically host the server. Database and file backups become even more important but they will feel in control of a thing. Have a keyword or code word they all learn means to go check the private platform that "primary platform" would not recognize. Maybe when they see "Turtle Farts!" they know to go log into your service.
- They may just stay on their primary preferred service. Every group is different and not every group will see the benefits of your fallback service. They may not appreciate the work you put into setting it up for them. Do not expect to get the friends of your friends and family to move to your service. They may not appreciate the OpSec value until "Bad Things"(c)™2038 happen to enough people. Just be there for when it does.
- If there are concerns that you would spy on them, consider instead using eJapperd or Prosody as you can implement OMEMO for individual and group end-to-end encrypted messages. Set up TLS fingerprint checks from multiple locations to reduce the risk of MitM attacks until XEP-0474: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection is fully supported and active by default on both servers and all clients. This is the only thing holding me back from setting up a public Prosody server as 0474 is still experimental. See [1]
- Avoid (block) federation on private servers for friends and family otherwise it is not a private server.
During Iran's Internet blackout, I set up a chatmail server on an interanet VPS, installed Delta Chat's client (https://delta.chat) on every family member's phone, and they are using it even now after the Internet is back.
I have tried Matrix, XMPP (Conversations), Signal and even some Nostr clients but Delta Chat has by far the best UX and reliability. It has groups, channels and private messages, stickers and built-in video calls. My only gripe is that it doesn't have video messages or screen share like Telegram yet.
If you want to try it out you're always welcome to message me.
vladkens 1 hours ago [-]
Wow. Sounds interesting. I also looked for a solution to talk to relatives in case the internet gets blocked. Ended up with XMPP, since it has independent servers in different countries that can talk to each other. But the XMPP clients I tried are pretty bad, with no images or audio/video calls.
Did video calls work during the blackout too? I think calls should work like in the good old Skype days, pure P2P.
Giorgi 29 minutes ago [-]
I am going to bite - how would servers work in other country if you have internet blocked, what am i missing here?
kreyenborgi 25 minutes ago [-]
Hadn't heard of that one before. The instant profile thing sounds a bit like Simplex Chat? (Which I would like to like, but the founder seems to be intent on shooting his feet off with altright twitter posts, sigh)
Thom2000 2 hours ago [-]
I manually installed Conversations.im on their phones configuring accounts, joining groups etc then on my phone I've disabled notifications on other chat apps. If they want something, XMPP is the only way to reliably reach me. Over time they grew to like it even though it's not perfect (eg. no built-in gallery or message retraction).
tonytamps 31 minutes ago [-]
The OP is asking for suggestions and you've instead done some weird brag that makes you look bad.
Don't fuck with people's notification settings.
28304283409234 26 minutes ago [-]
"then on my phone I've disabled notifications "
Perhaps read that again. Then appologize.
tonytamps 14 minutes ago [-]
Yep, fair shout. I did absolutely misread that but I still think it's some weird brag that doesn't address the question in the slightest.
I do still stand by not fucking with people's notifications but you did not do that and I retract that.
MattJ100 4 hours ago [-]
Curious if you've tried Snikket, and what hurdles you ran into (if you did). I made it with the primary purpose of moving my family communication over to XMPP, and I succeeded with that (improving a bunch of stuff in the process). I'm not claiming it's perfect (a known weak point is the iOS app, but we're actively working on solving that...)
mtlynch 3 hours ago [-]
Thanks for creating Snikket!
I tried Snikket and ejabberd on the server and found Snikket way easier to use.
I haven't tried any Snikket clients because I'm tinkering with web apps to start and it looks like Snikket doesn't have a web client yet outside of the admin portal.
I really like that Snikket allows me to create invitations without relying on SMTP. I love having it just as a URL I can send however I want.
I wish I kept better notes on my Snikket onboarding because I did run into a few hiccups.
I find the concept of "Circles" unclear because I don't understand how it differs from regular users. Thinking about it more, I'm assuming the idea is that I might have a family group and a college friends group, but I don't want my dumb college friends messaging my mom even though they're all on the same server?
My more superficial note is that I find the admin UX a little rough. It feels a little early 2000s design where everything is a form submit when there could be more JS interactivity (and this is coming from someone who hates JS frameworks but likes minimalist JS like htmx). And there are four top-level admin actions, and one of them is "Invitations" but that seems to duplicate everything available to me under "Users."
MattJ100 3 hours ago [-]
Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah, no web client yet, but we're working on a web app (it exists already, but doesn't do end-to-end encryption fully yet, also no video calls). My primary use case for Snikket was displacing things like WhatsApp where web usage is (in my experience) rare, so the focus has been on mobile apps.
Circles - yes, you got it. Initially we launched without circles, and some people complained they couldn't invite friends to their server without those friends mixing with their family members by default. I wasn't sure at first, but now even use this feature myself for e.g. a "Games night" circle. You can read more about the feature here: https://snikket.org/service/help/features/circles/
And yes, I totally get what you mean about the web dashboard. We're toying with replacing it at some point (partly because the backend is Python, and it uses over 2x the RAM of the chat server when idle!).
cf100clunk 3 hours ago [-]
''right now we want to focus on doing one thing and doing it well''
In trying, I discovered that most family members don't want to use anything that lets the government spy on its users, but one sibling is against privacy in general and only wants to use platforms that allow the government to spy on users, so there's no solution.
andai 2 hours ago [-]
Does anyone know if Chat Control 2.0 will cover self-hosted services?
vekntksijdhric 3 hours ago [-]
interesting, most of my family and friends simply don't care one way or another, as long as it is convenient to use (for which whatsapp et al. win by a mile)
junek 1 hours ago [-]
… why? Are you pushing this on people for their good, or for yours?
DonsDiscountGas 1 hours ago [-]
Why are you dead set on self hosting? Signal is probably an easier lift
singpolyma3 1 hours ago [-]
I said "you can use this app to talk to me"
kkfx 15 minutes ago [-]
Me too, I failed with XMPP, but Matrix/ElementX got a bit of success.
griffiths 1 hours ago [-]
Is Matrix a good solution for internal company communication?
Or is it better to go the way of "industry standard" like slack?
CircuitSeuss 1 hours ago [-]
Depends on the company.
If small enough, group chats will work just fine with less struggle and overhead.
If larger, possibly.
NextCloud may do much of what you need.
kkfx 15 minutes ago [-]
Matrix is good as a LiveKit client who support active call, like a phone call, and good enough for passively share screen (no remote input supported for now). Not good for chat.
A good FLOSS internal chat is Zulip, a passable one is Mattermost (who is better for many things, but being "Open Source Enterprise" is largely a no-go IMO.
Zulip+DocMost are Slack+Confluence. Zulip support calls as well, but via Jisti and they aren't much nice IMO.
han2 2 hours ago [-]
Matrix is still horrible. Element web is definition of bloat. Encryption mismatch issues. Device not verified issues. Did someone say metadata issues???
Signal just works. It acts like a feature rich messenger. XMPP/Matrix just isnt that good for the average person.
fishgoesblub 3 hours ago [-]
It was easy getting the family I talked to on Matrix to switch to XMPP, all I had to say was "imagine Element, but it actually works".
kkfx 13 minutes ago [-]
I've tried the inverse and failed. Meaning my family/friends do accept Element/X but not XMPP with all the clients I've tried. Which one you recommend?
andai 2 hours ago [-]
How did you get them on Matrix?
BorisMelnik 2 hours ago [-]
I just annoy them, but it backfired with Plex. now they are begging for user accounts for their friends/co-workers and I can't keep up*
eesmith 3 hours ago [-]
I was in a very different situation. Microsoft decided to stop supporting Skype, which we had been using for 15 or so years. We moved to Matrix.
SoftTalker 3 hours ago [-]
Weird how badly MS bungled Skype. It was the online video calling/meeting platform. It had become a verb: I'll skype you at 2:00.
Jap2-0 2 hours ago [-]
I still use it as a verb! Except now we skype on Signal.
baq 1 hours ago [-]
good luck getting people to install a 17th messenger app just to talk to you. I still don't know how I managed to get a few folks to install signal, looks like it was pure luck - pitched at the right time when Zuck was on a anti-privacy bender.
direwolf20 53 minutes ago [-]
Didn't. Use Signal instead. It's WhatsApp but blue. Nothing to explain.
nonethewiser 2 hours ago [-]
First step:
Never, ever utter the term “XMPP server” to them.
zbentley 1 hours ago [-]
Real talk. Maybe don't even headline/initially mention that it's something you run or administer (even though you're proud of it).
Apreche 3 hours ago [-]
Make sure that everyone in your family is a huge nerd. That’s the only way.
yepyoukno 4 hours ago [-]
Improbable. This technology does not have a stable client and is overrun by garbage.
Try vibe coding your own app that your family and friends would install, and have this as the background communication layer.
Good luck!
bawolff 3 hours ago [-]
You are getting downvoted, but i can't help but wonder the same thing. Matrix/element is one of the worst chat clients i have ever used. Nothing works.
Forget normal people. How are you convincing techies to use this. Obviously there are other open source E2E encrypted chat programs that are half decent, but i never understand how people are convinced to use matrix of all things.
Arcuru 2 hours ago [-]
I was convinced to move into the Matrix ecosystem because of the promise/focus on bridging it into other things. I was hoping the clients would improve enough to be usable.
I think that was 5 or 6 years ago, and I'm convinced the clients have somehow gotten worse. That may just be perception though.
I haven't bothered looking for new clients though since the 'vibe-coding era' has begun, maybe something else has come along.
SoftTalker 3 hours ago [-]
Some people are drawn to complexity and tinkering. Many of them work in tech.
Arathorn 2 hours ago [-]
what things didn't work, and what server & version of Element were you using?
slipperybeluga 2 hours ago [-]
I keep wondering how people are getting it working and are happy with it. My homelab runs like 60 services, but I gave up on matrix
henrychannel 1 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kennywinker 2 hours ago [-]
Just a little shout out to chatto (https://chatto.run/), which is the best slack/discord alternative i've seen so far. Not federated or crypto based, but just a solid chat platform.
Signal is incredible user friendly, privacy respecting, the gold standard for encryption, cross platform, etc. Yes, it’s centralized, yes it’s imperfect in many ways, but it’s easy and it’s pretty damn good.
If you want to help the people around you to become more involved in understanding and owning their tech, it has to be an easy and good experience. It has to be tangibly better, not just abstractly better with tangible downsides.
I use XMPP, but would never try to convince my friends and family to use it; it’s too complicated, the user facing apps all suck (Snikket and Cheogram are the best of the bad lot), and the incentives to use it aren't there. As you said, it’s just not attractive to a regular user, since it’s all around a worse experience than what they currently use. The one exception is that I do occasionally recommend XMPP for SIP access via jmp.chat to some of my more technical friends who have a tolerance for clunky user experiences in favor of privacy and affordability. I am holding onto an unreasonable hope that Signal or Whatsapp or others will consider XMPP+OMEO in the future to popularize the standard, but that is extremely unlikely.
Matrix also is an unfortunately terrible alternative to discord (even Element is a rather lacking user experience), so while I have pushed to move groups there before, I no longer recommend Matrix. I suggest signal or nextcloud as alternatives when possible; the remaining large groups who need the closed server forum style system are usually unlikely to move to Matrix anyway.
But I can't even decide on a matrix/xmpp client for myself, much less for family or friends.
Unless everyone in your circle is on HN all the time, you will probably fail to convince them to change.
The more likely outcome is that you wind up annoying everyone involved and don't get invited to the new discord server.
- Whether family or friends, always suggest it as a "fallback" for when "preferred service" is down and to use when discussion ultra-sensitive topics or sharing financial files. With time they may just stay connected to it if the friction to do so is low. It has to be their choice, not yours.
- What helps? Add more incentives such as perks that "preferred service" does not offer. No file size limits. No or few file type limits. No content filters. Add emoji's or gifs that align with their inside jokes and their style of humor. Keeping random people away is very important. Making your friends and family administrators or moderators and let them decide how it operates. Do not moderate or power-trip over your friends or family or they will leave. Limit rules to "Do not break the laws of this country in public chatrooms" and private chat rooms if you do not physically host the server. Database and file backups become even more important but they will feel in control of a thing. Have a keyword or code word they all learn means to go check the private platform that "primary platform" would not recognize. Maybe when they see "Turtle Farts!" they know to go log into your service.
- They may just stay on their primary preferred service. Every group is different and not every group will see the benefits of your fallback service. They may not appreciate the work you put into setting it up for them. Do not expect to get the friends of your friends and family to move to your service. They may not appreciate the OpSec value until "Bad Things"(c)™2038 happen to enough people. Just be there for when it does.
- If there are concerns that you would spy on them, consider instead using eJapperd or Prosody as you can implement OMEMO for individual and group end-to-end encrypted messages. Set up TLS fingerprint checks from multiple locations to reduce the risk of MitM attacks until XEP-0474: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection is fully supported and active by default on both servers and all clients. This is the only thing holding me back from setting up a public Prosody server as 0474 is still experimental. See [1]
- Avoid (block) federation on private servers for friends and family otherwise it is not a private server.
[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37955264
I have tried Matrix, XMPP (Conversations), Signal and even some Nostr clients but Delta Chat has by far the best UX and reliability. It has groups, channels and private messages, stickers and built-in video calls. My only gripe is that it doesn't have video messages or screen share like Telegram yet.
If you want to try it out you're always welcome to message me.
Did video calls work during the blackout too? I think calls should work like in the good old Skype days, pure P2P.
Don't fuck with people's notification settings.
Perhaps read that again. Then appologize.
I do still stand by not fucking with people's notifications but you did not do that and I retract that.
I tried Snikket and ejabberd on the server and found Snikket way easier to use.
I haven't tried any Snikket clients because I'm tinkering with web apps to start and it looks like Snikket doesn't have a web client yet outside of the admin portal.
I really like that Snikket allows me to create invitations without relying on SMTP. I love having it just as a URL I can send however I want.
I wish I kept better notes on my Snikket onboarding because I did run into a few hiccups.
I find the concept of "Circles" unclear because I don't understand how it differs from regular users. Thinking about it more, I'm assuming the idea is that I might have a family group and a college friends group, but I don't want my dumb college friends messaging my mom even though they're all on the same server?
My more superficial note is that I find the admin UX a little rough. It feels a little early 2000s design where everything is a form submit when there could be more JS interactivity (and this is coming from someone who hates JS frameworks but likes minimalist JS like htmx). And there are four top-level admin actions, and one of them is "Invitations" but that seems to duplicate everything available to me under "Users."
Yeah, no web client yet, but we're working on a web app (it exists already, but doesn't do end-to-end encryption fully yet, also no video calls). My primary use case for Snikket was displacing things like WhatsApp where web usage is (in my experience) rare, so the focus has been on mobile apps.
Circles - yes, you got it. Initially we launched without circles, and some people complained they couldn't invite friends to their server without those friends mixing with their family members by default. I wasn't sure at first, but now even use this feature myself for e.g. a "Games night" circle. You can read more about the feature here: https://snikket.org/service/help/features/circles/
And yes, I totally get what you mean about the web dashboard. We're toying with replacing it at some point (partly because the backend is Python, and it uses over 2x the RAM of the chat server when idle!).
https://snikket.org/about/goals
kudos to that!
If small enough, group chats will work just fine with less struggle and overhead.
If larger, possibly.
NextCloud may do much of what you need.
A good FLOSS internal chat is Zulip, a passable one is Mattermost (who is better for many things, but being "Open Source Enterprise" is largely a no-go IMO.
Zulip+DocMost are Slack+Confluence. Zulip support calls as well, but via Jisti and they aren't much nice IMO.
Signal just works. It acts like a feature rich messenger. XMPP/Matrix just isnt that good for the average person.
Never, ever utter the term “XMPP server” to them.
Try vibe coding your own app that your family and friends would install, and have this as the background communication layer.
Good luck!
Forget normal people. How are you convincing techies to use this. Obviously there are other open source E2E encrypted chat programs that are half decent, but i never understand how people are convinced to use matrix of all things.
I think that was 5 or 6 years ago, and I'm convinced the clients have somehow gotten worse. That may just be perception though.
I haven't bothered looking for new clients though since the 'vibe-coding era' has begun, maybe something else has come along.